We are going through a period in this country where some people want to obliterate references to past figures and events that they find to be offensive.
Those same people might live to regret the day when the same thing happens to them.
Many of our elected officials are jumping on this bandwagon as a way to deflect focus away from their failures.
What is happening now is dangerous. Once this type of thing starts there is no telling where it will stop.
We deserve better
Brutus
elpasospeak 
And by “obliterate references to past figures and events that they find to be offensive” you mean glorify and honor the leaders of a War of Secession that were traitors to the United States, wanted to maintain slavery as a way of life, and felt white people were the superior race, correct?
The United States is pretty much the only country that has statues, schools, and roads that honor or celebrate people that rose up against the country and tried to destroy it. You won’t find any statues honoring Hitler or Rommel in Germany, nor Musoullini in Italy. You would be hard pressed to find a Pol Pot statue in Cambodia, or an Idi Amin statue in Uganda. Probably not too many Saddam Hussein statues left in Iraq I reckon.
Robert E Lee himself wrote “”I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.” when talking about erecting statues and monuments about the Civil War.
Funny thing about these “historical monuments:” Most were erected long after the war, in town squares, in the south, to remind black people who was in charge and to keep them “in their place.”
Why, we even have one in El Paso in San Jacinto Plaza that was erected in 1964 celebrating the Confederate States of America.
Statues and monuments are designed to honor. What Brutus, is a road named after Robert E Lee exactly honoring?
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What is a stadium named for a diploma mill honoring? Or a road named for a corrupt county judge? I suspect that you libtard SJWs will not stop with statues but will be digging up the dead pretty soon to desecrate their graves. It’s already begun in Madison WI, (Confederate POWs) where I lived in the 70s.
This is so Orwellian it disgusts me.
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Mr. Holt,
There is a statue of Oliver Cromwell near the English Parliament. He lead a revolution against the government and began a brutal civil war that lead to the beheading of an English king. Yet, the English have not toppled that statue.
Peggy Noonan says it best: ” When a nation tears down its statues, it’s toppling more than brass and marble. It is in a way toppling itself — tearing down all the things, good, bad and inadequate, that made it. Or, rather, everyone. Not all of what made America is good — does anyone even think this? But why try to hide from it? When you tear down statues you tear down avenues of communication between generations. Statues teach. You walk by a statue of Robert E. Lee with your 7 year old and he asks who that is. You say he was a great general. When he’s 8, on the same walk you explain the Civil War. When he’s 10 you explain what was at issue and how Lee was not only on the losing side but the wrong side. This is part of how history is communicated. We’re not doing it so well in our schools. It will be sad to lose another venue. Condi Rice said it well, before the current controversy. She did not agree with the impulse to tear down. “Keep your history before you,” she said. Keep it in you line of sight.”
Noonan believes there should be more statues, statues to honor for example the families of the victims the Charleston shooting two years ago who responded with forgiveness and prayer.
“More statues, not fewer; more honor, not more debris. More debris is the last thing we need.”
Before you look for a way to discredit Noonan or Condi Rice, please consider the point they and others are making.
You are right that most of the statues of Confederate soldiers were erected in the early 1900s. Teach children what caused this reaction. Reconstruction was a failed policy and the damage and resentment it caused carried into the next generation.
There is do doubt that slavery and the Civil War are the worst things ever to happen to this country. Teach children why but don’t tell them to destroy history.
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I have no problem moving statues to a museum where they can be studied in the context of time. I don’t agree with toppling. I have a problem when they are government sanctioned and are designed to intimidate a particular group of people. I also have a problem with glorifying traitors.
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Charles II did have Cromwell exhumed and placed his head on a pike on (I think) London Bridge where it stood for years. Talk about reframing history! Look for it here next.
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Actually there arw fascist-era public monuments throughout Italy, in every city andntiwn, and they serve as a reminder of that period. The Italians will not remove them.
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I have been in one of their national cemeteries that is packed full of Mussolini era dead soldiers, buried in vaults by their companies. The greatest honor and respect is accorded them.
Oh, and don’t forget the Romans, a total slave society. Next we’ll be tearing down post offices and courthouses built in the classical style as honoring a slave society (that is was). Lady Liberty, Jefferson Memorial, Washington Monument, US Constitution (written by cis-gendered hetero-normal white patriarchal slave owners)…
Once this SJW insanity starts, it doesn’t end.
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But those cemeteries don’t glorify Musolinni do they?
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The Italians still give him credit for making the trains run on time, which they have not since then. I’ve been stranded twice in the last 20 years due to local train strikes in Italy 🙂
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Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. Do we get rid of all references to him?
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Funny how the Right in this country goes into spasms trying to keep statues and monuments honoring the civil war traitors because they are “historical,” but don’t bat an eye at bulldozing through native American burial sites and artifacts to make way for oil pipelines.
That is true white privilege at it’s best.
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Right on the mark. Hypocrisy rules. Today, the anti facsists Black Shirts club campus GOP students for hosting a speaker, throw molotov cocktails and trash buildings. Then they call the others Nazis.
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Another example of white privilege, when a white guy decides which kids get laptops and which ones get Ipads (the poor ones, mind you), in his own effort to social engineer children’s learning – with very limited evidence.
If the poor parents get mad, said white guy says, “well, that’s how the grant’s were written. Hence, I’m not to blame.”
White guy goes home thinking he’s the righteous one. Due to his “superior” understanding, he did what’s best for the children. The dumb parents, taxpayers, (and posters on this blog) aren’t as smart as him and are lucky to have his wisdom making decisions for the community. That my friends is what I call white privilege.
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Last time I checked we had an overabundance of Hispanic school superintendents. How exactly does that make white privilege to blame for who gets laptops?
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See Tim Holt … the same guy who has been preaching about white privilege on this blog. Tim is also in charge of IT education at EPISD.
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Here’s a question: if you can go after statutes, can you go after Hollywood movies that might glorify some of these same events? What abut the Civil War movies like ‘Gone With The Wind,” and others. Or what about the old Cowboy and Indian movies?
And what about all the National Parks in those areas where the Civil War took place?
Just asking.
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We’ll have to diss The Matrix. The Blue Pill is clearly a racist satire of SJW mindfuck. The Red Pill speaks for itself:)
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Guess same never read what Lincoln’s thoughts and plans of bending up the nation wounds and finding reconciliation with the south were! Then again writings by Lincoln taken in today’s context would be seen as being a racist too.
Today it’s Confederate statues and street names but now we are hearing that this same movement have started calling for the removal of Statues and names of founding father who held slaves. Then the next progression in the left’s thinking is reparations with claims this will fix every thing. The left has became America’s modern day fascist. They want to erase history they not not like and abridge all others rights that disagree with them. It’s what real pure fascism is and does! Then again this is a slippery slope the fascist left is making the choice to step off onto but the fascist left fails to realize the pendulum swing both ways and they will be the loudest crying foul when it does!
This is just one example how crazy some on the fascist left are there was a man in Colorado who was attacked and stab because a group of leftist said he had a Nazi haircut so that made him a Nazi. Go figure! Now just wearing the wrong clothes,haircut, or even disagree with fascist leftist can get you injured or possible killed.
Then we are sure there is a good chance some one will throw the race card to what we posted here and call us a racist. The only problem is my wife is a native American, I have native heritage in sufficient amount if I wish to be a member of my tribe I could and we have Black and Hispanic grand children. Oh the wife and me knowing our heritage as well as we do we know there is a very high probability that we both had a few black ancestors on the family tree. So by the fascist left thinking we can’t be racist right! This is the failed thinking that is going on with the fascist left that is now verging on the lunatic fringe!
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“Facist Left” is not a real term.
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Paid Attention in History Class said so only by those on the fascist left! One meaning of Fascist is oppression of opposition and criticism which we have seen the fascist left do for the last year! You may need to pay more attention yourself!
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“ManintheMoon,” thanks for the interesting points you expressed above.
During the election season Trump’s campaign events sparked violent reactions in numerous cities, which the media freely reported on. One was even close by in Albuquerque. In some of his reaction to that tragic event in Virginia, was or is Trump conditioned to look differently at what took place?
Some in the serious media has now started to dig deeper and report on the issue, which is certainly helpful! Much of the early reporting seemed to be of the ‘fire engine & ambulance chaser variety,’ which unfortunately appears to be in vogue on the 24 hour TV news channels.
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Move the monuments to museums or keep them in place BUT either way include plaques that describe what these men stood for and make it clear they were no heroes in the larger scope of American history.
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I am quite shocked to read racist comments by people who want to maintain the Jim Crow era statues in mostly the confederate states as if they are educational and where they were intended to support segregation and glorify traitors and where they were supported and funded by the Klan and other racist groups like the Daughters of the Confederacy .
When you say people want to eliminate statues that “they find offensive” you acknowledge your own bigotry by not also being offended by reverence to Robert E Lee and the other Confederate traitors. Do not play Trump’s and Breitbart’s completely nonsense game of suggesting that statues of Washington or Jefferson are next in some type of logical progression. Have you no sense of shame or decency to be honest about what the confederate flag and these statues represent?
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Gnossos Maybe you and others have been under a rock but their are those on the fascist left who want to take down statues and street names of founding fathers who held slaves. It’s not just the Confederate statues and street names. If a community votes to take down Confederate statues and street names then We the People have voted to do so but not by the mob or by bureaucrats or by politicians and do it appropriately.
Then I draw the line at our founding fathers but the fascist left’s argument is going to be the same with the founding father who held slaves. And when it happens people like you will be making the very same argument.It’s an attempt to erase White History in America. In the case of the Founding Father Good,Bad, or Ugly ,indifferent or otherwise leave it alone. The belief that removing such references to our Founding Fathers will change pasted history some how and make present day better is share lunatic fringe non-sense.
I feel not shame, I never held slaves, never support slavery and was never the less the 4% of American that every held Slaves in the history of America. In addition I’m not responsible for the actions of people more the a 150 years ago. Sorry not going to be PC but this is the stupid of the fascist left to try and blame people today for something that happened more than 150 years ago! Then who is in line next, on the fascist left, after this to play another round of the history blame game of Whitey did it!!
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For those of you like JerryK who want to believe in Trump’s defenses of confederate statues or to promote falsehoods about how Europe contends with the racist Nazi past please read this article: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/20/why-there-are-no-nazi-statues-in-germany-215510?lo=ap_e1
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For the record I have not defended Confederate monuments. I have pointed out the similarities of this hysterical movement to the Orwellian erasure of inconvenient history in the past that typically presages a massacre.
For example, Mao’s Cultural Revolution in China circa 1967ff (in my lifetime) in which there was a mass erasure of statuary and of people inconvenient to the Mao narrative; Marxists insurgencies in France in 1871 and Russia in 1917 did the same with the statues and millions of lives, too.
Now it is happening here and already there is talk about the Jefferson Memorial and Washington Monument being non-PC. After 30 years in Congress, Nancy Pelosi just noticed that there are Confederate statues in the foyer. Horrors!!! I suppose Mt Rushmore will soon draw the ire of the SJW Taliban, too. Then they’ll go after books and libraries.
No end once it starts, so resist now and preserve our history – the good, bad and ugly. The Constitution was written by flawed men (not women) because that was how it was done back then, not because it was PC. Still, it is the best piece of Enlightenment governance the world has seen in 200+ years. Unless, of course, you got your degree in Victim and Gender Studies and know better, in which case you’ll call it racist, too.
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JerryK says “Now it is happening here and already there is talk about the Jefferson Memorial and Washington Monument being non-PC.”
No, in fact it is not happening here and there is not any such “talk” except by bigots on the conspiracy web sites you obviously read and blindly believe who are straining to promote a false equivalency.
No one is arguing that the good and bad elements of our history should not be remembered, but the difference between remembering and teaching history and honoring traitors and the racist Jim Crow supporters by leaving these monuments to that deplorable part of our history in public places in the southern states cannot be defended.
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Heard it from Al Sharpton.
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Gnossos just heard the very same thing from a Democratic Black activist/radio talk show host who worked for Bernie who said the very same thing. There are those on the Fascist left saying such thing and promoting it it’s not some conspiracy theory it’s fact! Just because you have missed it doesn’t make it not true!
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I have a question for those of you who want to destroy or put in museums the statues of those you call “traitors.” If this is truly what you think, why has this just now become an issue for you? Why have you suddenly become so righteous and patriotic?
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And most of us were in utter disgust when ISIS was destroying antiquities in the Middle East. History is history – if it fits in a museum then put it there if not – leave it alone.
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For military service people in the US and elsewhere, who study the military campaigns of leaders of both the North and South, do we ‘shit can’ all of that stuff too? Do we classify the ‘study’ of those campaigns as racists?
Is every person who visits the nice Civil War parks and battlefields, plus the cities of the South, really interested in racism? In addition, don’t those parks and interesting Southern cities create economic revenue through tourism?
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My grandmother was born in Tennessee in 1900. The stories she told about what our Confederate veteran ancestors had to say about reconstruction made it clear that those who supported the Confederacy were punished for their choice. The ones that survived the war and/or the health issues they developed as a result of the diseases they caught during the war, lost just about everything. Yankee carpetbaggers treated them like crap. The monuments weren’t a sign of oppression. They were instead a later generation’s way of paying tribute to a generation that truly paid their dues for a bad decision. Secession wasn’t illegal when the South began seceding. And as part of the healing process Confederate veterans are considered US veterans by the VA. VA will pay for replacement tombstones for these veterans. Our history is messy and filled with human rights violations if you apply today’s standards. But we all have an American story. Picking heritage winners and losers only causes resentment and division. Identity politics drives a cult of victimhood with a continuing need for apologies. We need to move on or there really will be no end to it.
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I spent about 3 months in Virginia last year and visited a few cemeteries. There were hundreds if not thousands of graves marked by small stick Confederate flags. I wonder if these will be removed? And should they be?
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You probably visited near the time of Confederate Memorial Day. Our national Memorial Day evolved from something known as Decoration Day. A Confederate widow started that tradition by cleaning and decorating her husband’s grave with flowers. It caught on and soon became an annual event for Confederate widows. And eventually that tradition led to Memorial Day. However, members of the United Daughters of the Confederacy and other proud Southerners still keep the tradition of placing flags (generally a different version than the Confederate battle flag) at Confederate graves for Decoration Day. They are normally removed either at the end of the day or shortly there after. I have participated in these ceremonies and it is simply a matter of paying respect to the dead and interestingly enough it is dead from multiple races because in some cases Black slaves chose to fight for the South and were honored as Confederate soldiers. There are a lot of Southern traditions associated with the Confederacy that simply involved respecting our dead. And Tim Holt, they were not traitors and the Federal government has recognized that and treats them as veterans. It was part of the healing process after the war. So when you disrespect the grave of a Confederate veteran, you are disrespecting a veteran. I wonder what will happen to the veterans and monuments of the Vietnam war 50 years from now when ignorant leftists decide to label it as immoral imperialism and use tearing down monuments as a rallying cry for their cause. Sound far fetched? We lost the war. There were human rights violations. Minorities were disportionately used as soldiers because it was harder for them to avoid the draft. There was corruption in prosecution of the war. In short, a lot of bad stuff happened opening the door to another Erase campaign when the folks who really understood the complexities are dead and can no longer explain that side of history. We need to look at this for what it is: the politics of division run amuck. We are creating a cult of victimhood that will never be satisfied if we continue down this road.
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Ok. Once and for all. Please pay attention. The civil war was about slavery. Period. Slavery was , no shit, our original sin. That and the brutal extermination of the native Americans. Anything that serves to “commemorate ” or glorify that is just bone stupid. The civil war statues were mostly erected around and after 1900 as a reaction to reconstruction and to promote so called southern culture and pride. That culture included the KKK. Have any of you actually been to Alabama? And some point we have to evolve and engage in some critical thinking. Do any of you honestly think that the Confederacy’s battle flag is any less offensive than the swastika? We created this cast of fantasy characters that have nothing to do with reality. It’s time to grow up. I’m sorry if your belief systems ,totems ,shibboleths or comic book fantasies have been challenged.
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Ali Razi, Aka Max Power, AKA Beto Moore
It’s like claiming sex doesn’t cause STD’s but STD’s caused the sex.
The fight was over states rights to control interstate commerce over the federal government rights to control such commerce and slavery happened to be the issue that bought it to head which cause the war. Oh this very same fight over the State’s rights and Federal government’s rights to control interstate Commerce that still goes on to this very day!
Even Lincoln himself said he believed the Federal government under the Constitution did not have the right to abolish slavery in states where it had long time standing. Also some on the left need to read some history what many Northerner in government thought of Blacks including Lincoln who thought they were not equal to whites. Also enlighten your self on what Lincoln thought was the right way to bind up the nation’s wound and find reconciliation with the South.
In addition to the punishment the South received after Lincoln’s death which areas in the South still have never recovered from even today that effect both Blacks and Whites. Revisionary History from the fascist left at it’s worst!
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And if you really want to commemorate something let’s really dress up the Andersonville, Ga and Ft Douglas prisoner of war camps. More soldiers died there than in Vietnam. Let’s put our General’s statues there.
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Man in the moon . You’re an idiot.
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At least we know more real history than super geniuses on the left such as yourself! Guess you think Lincoln was an abolitionist!
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OMG, it just occurred to me! What are we going to do about Jeff Davis County? The offense it must give to SJWs driving thru or flying over it!
Maybe the county would receive all the offensive statuary, Washington Monument, Mount Vernon, Monticello, Jefferson Memorial, etc. It could be a major tourist attraction for Nazis and history buffs.
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To Gnossos, Tim Holt, Jud Burges, Beto Boore:
I still would like an answer to my question. The statues of the men and women you call traitors have been standing over 100 years. Why are you just now expressing how memorials to these people offend your patriotism and righteousness? Obama was president for 8 years. Why didn’t you lead a campaign then to remove these objects that are so offense to you?
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Many people including myself have been outraged by not just the statues but also the confederate flag for a very long time now but the bigoted Republicans in control of the Confederate States since the 70’s (our current Attorney General, Jefferson Beauregard Sessions of Southern Alabama is a perfect example) have stopped any such protests from gaining traction. If you were not aware of the significant public outrage over these statues and flags in past decades then you were just following fake news instead of real news. It was the church shooting two years ago by a white nationalist and the public outrage that finally allowed for the confederate flag to be removed from S. Carolina capital building, NASCAR tracks and the Georgia license plates at long last, and now that we have a self defined racist President per his comments last Tuesday the outrage is supporting the removal of statues of traitors from the Confederacy which are Jim Crow legacies. Did you know that the confederate flag was created during Jim Crow and not during the civil war? Perhaps you are also not aware of what the Jim Crow period was all about with the horrible abuses of black Americans including poll taxes and other means of denying voting rights and imposing Segregation – or maybe you are well informed about Jim Crow and you are just a bigot and support that time and those atrocities coming back. Otherwise why would you be outraged about these statues finally being removed even if you were not aware of the movements over decades which supported those objectives. Stop repeating weak and racist FOX News talking points you have heard since Charlottesville and do some soul searching. Be calm and try to determine what your motivation is for your outrage over statues of traitors being removed from public property?
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The statues represent to me a certain point in history. I will never apply my 21st century values to what someone did 150 years ago. I believe in presenting history unvarnished but with understanding of the times. Do you drive a car? Use refrigerated air? Use a clothes dryer? 100 years from now some people may say you were a selfish energy hog with no respect for environment.
But why do I bother. Obviously, anyone who disagrees with you is a racist in your mind. That in itself is bigotry.
By the way, what is now known as the Confederate flag was first used in 1863, not the Jim Crow era. As you build your case for White Privilege, racism and hate, please get the basic facts right.
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I do know the flag was used back then by Robert E Lee in one fighting brigade he commanded, but it was not the flag of the Confederacy as it is commonly believed to be by most who fly it. I also agree that history should be should absolutely be presented unvarnished but that has nothing what so ever to do with placing statues of white supremacist traitors on public land in the 20th century as a means to glorify white supremacy. You need to come to terms with the FACT that if you support these statues being on public property or flying that flag you are by definition a white supremacist and that makes you a racist too. As you say the statues represent “a certain point in history” (though in reality it is moreover an entire era in our country’s most disgraceful aspect of our history) but that history is a disgrace and must not be honored. The statues do not “represent a certain point in history” they praise it and though that praise was and still is endorsed by bigoted Southerners I do insist we apply our 21st century values to “what someone did 150 years ago”. I disagree with people often who are not racists, but in this case the shoe clearly fits you and you can’t take back the things that support that in your comments below.
Are you also a birther and do you agree with Trump that Mexicans are rapists and drug smugglers and that some good people were marching with the Nazis and KKK members in Charlottesville shouting “Jews will not replace us”? Where do you draw the line on your white supremacy since you want those statues to remain and you don’t draw the line there?
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Wow, take a deep breath and relax. Your hate is going to come back and bite you. I feel sorry for you really.
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The Confederate Battle flag you are referring to was used by troops in Tennessee during the war. I’ve got a photo of my great-great-great uncle posed with his (bullet holes and all) in the background. Sad history is being rewritten.
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Gnossos
The fake outrage from the fascist left is what is sicking! Charlottesville is just one more example of true traitors of America and the Constitution who broke the law to suppress others right they do not agree with! Yep no matter your weak arguments you can get around these facts. Then again others and you will come up with weak argument why it was OK to break the law and abridge others rights. Sure we can all agree the idiot who ran over the people and killed one should face the full weight of the law but had the fascist left not been unlawfully protesting and in the streets it would not have given this idiot the opportunity to be a moron! So the Fascist left has some culpability to what happened!
In addition the Fascist left and the Left wing media gave these very same groups more help,support, exposure and notoriety before the public than they ever would or could of gotten from their own members and supporters. Way to go Super Geniuses!
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I had a cat back during the Obama years. She was my everything. Then suddenly she died after ingesting a small mouse squeak toy right before Trump was elected. Then I decided to focus on the false idolatry of civil war statues to mitigate my grief. So far so good.
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Ok Abandon hope. I think I take your point. How do you feel about lawn jockey statues? I’ll betcha you like em.
Seeing as that’s part of our history and all. How bout Amos and Andy? Come on. You know you laughed. I think step in fetch it was part of our history too.
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BM who ever
This is the stupid of the left maybe research Alvin Childress and Spencer Williams and who every could forget the out standing performance by Tim Moore as the King Fish what an out standing cast for the TV version.You have now proven yourself as not an idiot but a total moron. Next you’ll be throwing out Porgy and Bess to try and support your fascist leftist argument. Your a Fascist leftist in denial!!
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Beto Bore — Wrong again.
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Let me inflame the Fascist left here even more!
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After reading this thread I am coming around to keeping the statues in place. But not for historical reasons. Rather, I like how they trigger libtard fascists such as BLM and Antifa into frothing-at-the-mouth fury that shows their real colors for all to see.
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The worst comment you have ever posted. You just showed your real colors.
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In your wildest dreams do you really think my opinions are informed by antifa or BLM or LSMFT? This not a right or left issue. This is right or wrong issue. I’d like you to imagine this. Imagine you are in a room filled with bright, prosperous, well spoken black people and their children. How would you explain or justify commemorating or honoring people that fought to preserve the barbaric tradition of slavery. Your assumptions have been challenged. I’m sorry if that makes you uncomfortable. But George Soros didn’t make me say this.
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Believe Robert E. Lee was the engineering officer who helped design and build Fort Monroe at Hampton, Virginia. That was earlier in his military career before he became a general officer. Now are we expected to tear down that old fort, which is an interesting historic relic?
Since the U.S. was initially formed as an ‘imperfect union’ with thirteen states of differing interests, but a common oversees enemy; are those solders who expressed loyalty to the states from which they came from in the South, really traitors? That’s just a real nutty revision of history.
And just because someone can look at these things differently, certainly does not make them racists, or supporters of the KKK, or these other radical fringe groups.
During the election season it was easy to see there were people who took license on the other side to create mayhem and create discord. That idiot who crashed that early Bernie Sanders rally was way out of line. People went to hear Bernie, not that idiot who apparently could only get media attention by his ‘bull shit’ antics.
If Washington and state lawmakers really want to get control of this ‘bull shit,’ which has been out of control for a long time, they should take on these law breakers who wear masks, whose only goal is to provoke discord and create mayhem.
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WARNING !
Do NOT use $20.00, $50.00 or $100.00 bills, they depict slave owners. Send these hideous forms of racism to me and I will dispose of them.
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What about the Juan de Onate statue at the airport?
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