Yesterday we talked about item 8.2 on the March 25, 2014 city council agenda and how it introduces a potential ordinance that would govern downtown parking districts.
Ball park
Item 8.3 on the agenda would introduce another potential ordinance that would allow the city to extend the hours where fees can be charged for parking at a parking meter.
Currently fees in the city apply from 8 AM to 6 PM Monday through Friday.
They want to extend the time to 10 PM and also include charges for Saturday as well. This would only apply to “the Baseball Park District”. At this point I have been unable to find out what geographic area the baseball park district encompasses.
Need more money
Item 8.4 introduces yet another ordinance that would allow higher parking meter rates in, you guessed it, the “baseball park district”.
How high? They will charge 50 cents per 12 minutes. That brings the rate to $2.50 per hour.
With the average game lasting 2 1/2 to 3 hours and you needing to get to the parking spot earlier, you can expect to pay the city $10 dollars for the privilege of parking at a meter.
We deserve better
Brutus
elpasospeak 
So we’re supposed to pay these meteoric rates when parking in the ballpark district, but what about those of us attending another event in the area? That’s punishing everybody, making it more expensive than necessaryfor the sake of ‘financing’ the ballpark. Maybe we shouldn’t even bother to attend downtown events anymore.
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Mamboman, baby! There IS NO OTHER event in the area!
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Civic center stuff, Abe Chavez stuff, Plaza theater, Union square, downtown festivals, Conferences/conventions at the Camino Real, Art & history museum, bars, restaurants, shopping…there’s plenty of choices besides the overly hyped ballgames…heck, even going to the library is more appealing to me.
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Rpeat after me Mamboman: There is no other event….there is no other event…
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Hey, Deputy Dawg, remember how Deputy Dawg was always getting bamboozled by the varmints, Muskie and Vince and Moley, and they’d end up getting away with a chicken or something? Well, looks like not much has changed…the varmints are still at it, and Deputy Dawg is still getting bamboozled. 😉 But, seriously, if you’re shmoozed by all the hype and it makes you happy to part with your chickens, then go for it.Hope you’ve got your season tickets and your reserved parking spot. I have plenty of more appealing options.
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Good way to keep people away from downtown.
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Why that hardly leaves me any money to buy a Chihuahua Dawg at the City Hall Grill!
But we will go on El Paso! This is the price of progress! All of the big spending out of towners that will travel to El Paso to see their Arkansas Piss Ants and Benson Arizona Mojados will help revitalize the downtown because they will have lots of money left over after the game to go have a brewski at Beto’s favorite hangout The Garden in the revitalized Union Plaza District.
Serve up that sushi now baby!
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Deputy Dawg — Don’t fret. Maybe the City Grill will accept food stamps. Some of the Mountainstar principals and their vocational school sponsor have a lot of experience tapping into government money.
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Hey, the city fuzzy math CFO and her boss lady, Joyce, did establish that the average family would spend an average of $40+ per person on the ballpork. That proved this boondoggle was an economic windfall machine, right? Now, time to make it work.
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Time to start looking elsewhere for retirement. El Paso’s previous mayor and council (and Joyce W. of course) have made El Paso a poor choice for retirement.
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5 reasons to not go to the downtown ball park games.
1. price of parking and bad traffic.
2. moral imperative since they shoved it down our throat without a vote.
3. chance of getting stuck with a needle by one of the homeless downtown begging for money.
4. chance of caching a bullet from Juarez especially if entering the stadium from the south side.
5. chance of getting run over by a drunk Billy Abraham on one of the downtown streets while walking to the stadium.
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6. Contributing to the Hunt-Foster nestegg.
7. Getting splashed by someone emptying their innards in the vomitory.
8. Knowing the rich are celebrating and congratulating themselves in the upper chambers
9. Being sooo confused that I’m in a “university” facility that doesn’t look anything remotely like a university.
10. Having to see Southwest University plastered over everything and knowing it was just another dirty backdoor deal with a disreputable diploma mill that somehow makes millions in profits for the Arriola famly off of taxpayer funded financing like GI Bill funds for its students.
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The vote on blooducking …er…I mean… tripling the cost on the meters and adding more meters went 3 to 3 with Acosta who would’ve noted ‘no’ and Niland who would’ve voted ‘yes’ absent for the vote…how interesting. I think they already had taken a poll somehow that it would end up a tie… and the kicker: Leeser broke the tie in favor of the increases, etc. How very, very disappointing for the new mayor to agree to this. Apparently, city staff thinks if we cater to the rich…let’s go all the way and make the parking spots only for the rich too and let’s not encourage any kind of unnecessary minging of the upper classes (or their gilded chariots) with the peons.
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I think I have this right —
You people didn’t want the ballpark – made it so what City did get was far less than if you had supported it. And now it’s less than you believe you deserve.
What does it matter to you if parking is $100 an hour? You wouldn’t go to a game anyway, seeing as how you might spontaneously burst into flames if you stood in the doorway to the stadium.
Or wait – might it be that you might like the ballpark experience? Well, you do have the right to change your mind. But now you’re upset that it might cost you more than dinner for the kiddos at Chico’s.
‘It should be free!’ you say, or close to it. ‘No one should have to pay for parking!’ you say, or pay more than it costs now.
Guys – join us in this century. The water is warm. Nothing is free. Even in the good ol’ days, somebody paid for everything. Businessmen even tried to turn a profit. The city tries to get people who’ll go to the ballpark, who probably even voted for it, to pay for it by paying more for parking. That sounds pretty sensible to me. I don’t wanna pay? I don’t go to a game, or I take a bus ride. At least my property taxes, which are a bigger concern to me, aren’t higher anyway whether or not I decide to go.
Carlos
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I for one never have said things should be free, but it sounds like you think that people who go downtown for reasons other than a ballgame should have to overpay for parking just to help pay for the ballpark. Ballgames are not the only reason people might park in that area, especially given the overall shortage of downtown parking.
You say nothing is free, but the terms Mountainstar’s lease agreement are nearly free when put in the context of the revenue they will generate from having total control and exclusive use of the ballpark.
Please explain how it is that “City [got] far less than if [opponents] had supported it.”? Opposition didn’t cause any cutbacks in the original ballpark budget. Just the opposite.
With regard to businessmen trying to turn a profit, it’s not City’s responsibility to negotiate unfavorable terms on a taxpayer-paid-for ballpark just to help ensure that two billionaires turn a profit.
Join us in the 21st century where there is thing called accountability. But maybe you prefer crony capitalism and pay-to-play politics where things are free to those who own our elected officials.
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RC, as I said below, you have valid points.
I won’t repost what I’ve said below – I’m starting to feel lightheaded.
Shortage of downtown parking is a popular myth. Currently, there is an inventory of 12,000 parking spaces (of all types) downtown, according to the urban planner hired by the City, enough for a full ballpark with quite a few to spare. Intuitively, you might think that’s totally wrong – but you can’t throw a rock without it landing in a paid parking area. And don’t even start about free parking, which to me is like pigs flying – you’ll only see that if your eyes are closed and you’re dreaming.
Now, parking next to the stadium. especially 7,000 plus spaces, is a logistical impossibility. No need to wish for that – it’s not happening.
One of the major selling points to this ballpark for me was the mechanism for paying for it. I’m all for out-of-towners paying for it – no increase in property taxes. Revenue projections are off now? It doesn’t mean they’re going stay down. Budgets have been balanced on unexpected increases on revenues from taxes, bridges and other fees. People won’t come from anyplace else because of the HOT tax? Believe me, if people want to come, they’ll be here regardless of the HOT rate. We might have a reason for them to come if we have a great new ballpark and a great new downtown for them to come to. Anyone notice the number of new hotels going up? That’s not because there’s an anticipated “decrease” in the number of hotel rooms that will be needed.
My point is – this ballpark could have been better – better, more decorative walkways to the stadium. Better stadium plaza. Better surrounding area for the ballpark, not to mention better streets downtown, which in turn enhances the downtown experience for everyone even if they don’t go to a game.
And all of this could have been done with out-of-towners footing the bill. It doesn’t get better than that, unless Foster gives us one of his billions for free. Give me odds on that happening. Because those things have to get done anyway, parking at the meters may have to go up to pay for them, which impacts non-ballpark visitors – all because the ankle-biters (certainly no one here) made that happen.
As for the sweetheart deal Foster got – it mirrors that drawn up for other municipal stadiums nationwide. That doesn’t mean I like it – it’s just not out of the ordinary. Other excellent posts on this site go over the details.
Apologies for the snark – I blame the lightheadedness.
Warm regards,
Carlos
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Carlos — I am responding to this post just so I can get it to you directly. Don’t let individual responses to your comments keep you from participating here. I, for one, welcome your opinions, even if I might disagree with some (but not all) of what you have to say. Cheers!
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Thanks RC – although the discussion gets intense here sometimes I never intended to stop participating. I’m honored to have been welcomed by the community.
Also, in response to Mamboman about whether I’m Anonymous, the answer is yes – but only one of ’em. I tried to post as Carlos but I still haven’t quite figured out this Internet thing 🙂
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Dear Carlos from the chicken coop (el gallinero), sound financial predictions (as in a feasibility study) should be based on facts and hard data, not lullabye dreams and snake oil charms. The trends are down and sure, may go up…. maybe? But, even if adjusted for inflations, will it be enough to meet debt service without creatively and decemptively dipping into the general fund like the city is having to do now? FACTS do not support your rosy prediction. For one, your optimism is thwarted by the fact that the sources that produce the HOT revenue are at risk such as looming big cuts in federal spendign that will affect El Paso’s dependency on government largesse (have your heard about the huge cuts in defense spending? GASP). That means less travel to EP for federal contractors and workers and periphery businesses. Then there are the repeated layoffs of several employers in this community such as State Farm and possibly even Helen of Troy. The unemployed not only don’t have the $$$ to go the game and pay for parking and hot dogs, they don’t have enough to pay their property taxes (rises in foreclosures perhaps shine like a little lighbulb in your analytical mind?). There goes the other 30% of the funding for the ballpork. In the end, this is the result of the deliberate and irresponsible failure to conduct a feasibility study. We see the results now and your chickens are coming to your gallinar to roost. And as far as your sad complacency that its ok for Foster and the team owners to have gotten a sweetheart deal (highway robbery if you ask us; they get all profits from concessions sales, parking, rental of the taxpayer-funded stadium, naming rights and only pennies to the city from ticket sales as well as possibly your first born) because “it’s just not out of the ordinary” is just incredibly sad. Guess we should accept public corruption and malfeasance because it’s “just not out of the ordinary.” Although, dear chicken coop friend, you may be wrong on too of your unfounded assertions. Check out the contract that the City of Albuquerque negotiated with the Isotopes. Not even close to the give away in El Paso (and their ballpark is not in that city’s downtown, a DT which by the way, possibly due to that city’s superior socio-economic indicators and police brutality. 🙂 Next time, tell Joyce to send a better informed hack to respond to the bloggers.
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carlos, i would go had they re-built Cohen with this same type stadium. what was the parking cost at Cohen ? Zero . how hard was it to park at Cohen ? not at all. how accessible ? very.
if they had done it at Cohen we wouldn’t have had to tear down a perfectly good building, (actually one of nicest looking buildings downtown) buy other buildings, and make the taxpayer fork out another 100 million or more(we will never know that number). but no, foster demanded it be downtown. why ? maybe he wanted his private tunnel from the office to the stadium or wanted to fill his parking garages that he owns. who knows ? i love baseball, played it in high school and a little bit of college, have coached kids in little league and pony league. however, i will never put my toe in that stadium and i paid for a luxury box at Cohen when the real AA Diablos were there. its a moral imperative IMHO not to support this. Get ready, property taxes will have to go up. nothing is coming out in the financing like wilson said it would. hot wont pay the interest, etc.,etc.,etc., now, property tax will have to be raised to pay the principle and some of the interest. that money will have to be taken from the general fund.
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Precisely. Ditto on a lot of your points. Why did Foster insist on it being downtown? Simple. He wanted it to enhance the value of his downtown properties.
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RC, you are correct. I can’t argue a valid point.
But if you owned a few hundred acres of empty land somewhere, and Wal-Mart approached you to build one of their monstrosities on one of your properties, but only if you practically gave the land away, what would you do?
There’s lots of variables, I know. But If you were any kind of businessman, you’d take the deal. Why? Wal-Mart makes everything else you own more profitable. And that’s the whole point, isn’t it?
In the best case, as it is here, you have a business everyone wants, and you have empty land for which you want to maximize value – the best way to make it more valuable is to place your in-demand business next to your vacant land.
It is what businessmen do – while we’re obsessing on the smaller points, like parking and bruised egos over a restaurant name, the businessmen and the people you elected, by ballot box or through apathy, are stacking the deal against us.
El Pasoans have consistently said that they want to be in the big-time. Given what’s transpired here over the years, and the whooping we’ve been getting from people who say they have our best interests in mind, we better get tougher and smarter because let me tell you, while we’ve been whining that we deserve better, we’ve been getting it in the behind the whole time.
Sorry for the rant – apologies (sincerely) if I offended.
With warm regards,
Carlos
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will,
1. Parking was not free at Cohen. It was 5 bucks regardless of event that went directly to the stadium operator. It was a nice revenue stream for those guys, built by the city for which the city received zilch.
2. The old City Hall was nice – if you liked architecture from the 70’s, a decade a lot of people call “the decade taste forgot.” From a practical standpoint, I have some issues with its demolition, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say I miss it. It was originally built by the city with the intention of attracting a hotel operator – but no hotelier wanted it. It was undersized and so out of code compliance it was a catastrophe-in-the-making. Old buildings with character you keep – buildings like old City Hall are best swept into the dustbin of bad architecture history.
3. There’s are reasons baseball at Cohen failed. It was originally placed there for many of the same reasons people on this website advocated against the downtown location. It was accessible and land was cheap (old PSB land, if memory serves) – a slam dunk formula for success, right? Except for one thing – the only people who like (and love) the Northeast are the people who live there. People in this town are so starved for cool stuff to do that they’d even go to the Northeast to support the debacle that passed for professional baseball at Cohen for the last few years. Club mismanagement issues aside, ultimately baseball failed at Cohen because it was not a destination for anyone besides residents. After games, there were few bars (that didn’t have a-hole bikers) or cool places to go – people had no reason to stay around afterwards and actually got out of that part of town as fast as their SUVs could carry them. It’s been said location is the determining factor for success in any endeavor – the Northeast in its current state is not it.
4. Moral imperative, schmoral imperative. Let’s save righteous indignation for issues that matter, like the way a right-wing Congress strips opportunity from people willing to work, calls them lazy for having the temerity to depend on unemployment benefits, then strips them of that and creates a new class of poverty. Those poor guys can’t eat, much less give a damn about a ballpark.
5. The financing scenario you describe is the absolute worst-case. Not saying it won’t happen, but Tom Hanks said it better in Apollo 13: A thousand things have to happen before we get there – right now, we’re at number 17. Not an exact quote, but you get what I mean.
6. The parking fee increase really does suck, especially for those who are downtown and don’t go to a game. And the City Hall Grille thing is tribute to the former land user, not an indirect to anyone who didn’t support it.
With warm regards,
Carlos
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Carlos,
Baseball at Cohen was in fact very successful when it was a legit AA team. That’s why Jim Paul enjoyed a nice payday when he sold to a group, which eventually moved or sold the team. What he did with his millions is another story. The last incarnation of “Diablos” was not truly a minor league team. There were a lot of folks, myself included, who drove from the far West Side to Cohen for years to support the team for almost every home game when it was AA.
The Cohen location is actually now, more than ever, a central location — not East or Northeast as it once was. Cohen is now more centrally located than downtown.
I agree with much of what you have to say in #4, but moral principles shouldn’t be abandoned when dealing with what you deem to be lesser issues.
It’s also ironic that the the right-wing politicians to which you refer are supported so strongly by the two wealthy guys who wanted local taxpayers to build them a ballpark for their for-profit enterprise on lease terms that ridiculously low….almost free in the overall scheme of the revenue they will derive from using the ballpark.
If you think Jim Paul keeping the $5 parking fee was one-sided to the benefit of Paul, perhaps you should study the terms of the Mountainstar deal a little closer, especially in the context of the capital investment and operating expenses that will be shouldered by taxpayers.
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Carlos,
If my recollection is correct the city got 50% of the parking and 30% of the concessions.
Brutus
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The City gets zero percent of the concession sales at the new downtown ballpark, yet Joe Muench made a point of saying this weekend that he would hate to see an increase in parking prices because that would cut into concession sales. I guess he is worried about the retirement funds of Woody and Paul. Muench shamelessly, without reservation, promotes all things that benefit the Mountainstar owners. He probably wrote the piece while sitting at home, wearing his Chihuahuas t-shirt.
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Thanks Brutus – as Billy Joel says, you may be right.
I remember the good ol’ Cohen days, even the old Dudley days – I seem to remember those more fondly. As for Cohen being centrally located, it’s a wash. I do concede that I don’t go that way with as much trepidation as I used to.
But you didn’t say whether you’d hang around the Northeast before or after games. That’s the larger point here – the effort is to make downtown a place you’d want to go. I never liked going to the Northeast, even for a ballgame. When I did, I left as soon as I could. In our new downtown, workers can hang around after work and go to a game – there should be gathering places for them to kill some time before the first pitch. After day games or on weekends, there should be a few choices for families. Better museums, Union Plaza and the Arts market, the Mills Plaza Promenade if the Foster guys get off their asses, a beautiful new San Jacinto Plaza, a more pedestrian-friendly downtown – what’s wrong with that? Of course it comes at a cost; ask the politicians who put their political careers on the line to vote for things they knew would increase taxes and energize the vocal minority. Whether they’re political martyrs for a better El Paso is for someone else to decide – I just hope that at the end of this we attract the kind of jobs and industry that will at least give our youth pause to consider leaving – those kids really are our future.
On the other side, we can be a retirement destination if we choose. A sleepier existence, to be sure, but not necessarily a bad one. I think we’d still like to be a city with entertainment options beyond huacha tournaments and tequila drinking competitions.
It must also be noted that Foster is following the playbook for owners of major sports teams. Similar, possibly unnecessary venues in larger cities are being railroaded through their local governments, with no regard for fiscal responsibility. Ours is small potatoes compared to those. But let me tell you something – failure is not an option for those guys. They don’t get to where they are by taking foolish gambles. Consequently, we should not expect them to lie down simply because we’re screaming loudly.
Again – get tougher. This battle, a few weeks ahead of opening day, is done. There are others to fight – organize and fight them on their terms, which is always from a business perspective. They don’t need to fear you – you don’t have a large public mandate behind you.
With warm regards,
Carlos
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Tribute? Schmibute!!! I think the dynamite said it like it really is. To call it a “tribute” is complete hypocrisy. Reminds me of when my grandfather was forced to retire (something that nearly killed him and made him feel completely worthless and unappreciated) then they tried to “honor” him with an effin’ gold watch (which he had the balls to refuse). Either you have “respeto” or not! You cannot have it both ways.
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Wow – out of all of that, that’s what stuck with you. Head, meet wall.
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No, Carlos, I don’t think you have it right. When Brutus says, “we deserve better,” he’s not referring to wanting a better ballpark. He’s referring to less tangible things like the way in which our elected and appointed city officials do business, the way they do their jobs, the way they represent their consistuencies by listening, learning, operating in a transparent, honest, open, and responsible manner, If (more likely,when) the meter costs are tripled and extra meters are installed in the area, or if they were raised to $100, I would be affected when I go to another event in the area, as I often do, and park my vehicle. I don’t mind walking a few blocks, getting away from high traffic areas, and finding a free spot. That will probably no longer be available to me. Just because the city made a rotten, lopsided deal with Mountainstar on the financing, doesn’t justify their trying to make up for it now by charging more here and there. It’s not going to help, it’s taking away money that was supposed to be used for the Plaza and other things and reallocating it to paying off the ballpark. What happens when the next big project comes along and they have to “reallocate” again? If I were a businessman and had a product that people liked and was in short supply, then, yes, I might be inclined to charge more, but to charge an exorbitant fee that affects even those who are not buying my product changes the color of things from good business to just plain unscrupulous greed. As for your propety taxes being cool, I believe El Paso’s rate has been found to be one of the highest in the whole region. Mr Foster has contested the valuation of his property and had his property taxes significantly reduced while being lauded as a Forbes billionaire, so the city has to go scrounging for more funds from the common taxpayer because he doesn’t want to pay his fair share. Your property taxes are already making up some of the difference. So, sir….just some things for you to consider.
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Mamboman, I understand Brutus’ motivations, or at least I think I do. My point is that we need to do more than appeal to their sense of right and wrong. As I mentioned in another post, that we deserve better is absolutely right – only a moron would believe otherwise. Deserving better and getting better are mutually exclusive – we don’t get better simply because we deserve it, and we’re certainly not going to get better by whining about it. It’s gonna take more than that.
How to do that? That’s a question I haven’t thought through enough..Intuitively, make irresponsible politicians answer at the ballot box. It’s gonna be harder to smack Foster – the playbook he’s following for the ballpark and to keep the public on his side is similar, and I say this reluctantly, to how drug cartels keep the people in line — give them stuff they like (medical school, baseball) and get them to fight the battles with the people who know better.
Warm regards,
Carlos
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Carlos, I must admit, you are an excellent apologist for the ballpark fiasco…much better than Darren Hunt or even the Joe Munchies dude. Anyway, you make several excellent and illuminating points, of which I zeroed in on the ‘tribute” baloney because it was so matter-of-fact-ly stated that I couldn’t hold back. I couldn’t believe you would fall for it. Anyway, may I suggest for your own personal safety, one of those helmets that are readily available for bikers and skaters at any sports shop. Have a great day.
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Mambo, you mistake my intentions.
Reading through your comments on this site, I think I understand your role here – threaten (!) and denigrate anyone who doesn’t toe the line. I get it – it’s high school, but I imagine it’s made you pretty popular.
I’m no one’s apologist, believe me. Foster, Darren Hunt or Muench don’t need my help with convincing anyone of anything. I don’t have a personal interest in the ballpark succeeding, except maybe to see major leaguers pass through here on the way up, like they used to in the Dudley or Cohen days. The financing does worry me though – I can only hope for the best there.
I’d like to do what I can to dispel myths and misconceptions – too much of that in popular media. If I can tell a truth, unpopular or otherwise, and remove your motivation to write the idiotic things you do, well, I guess an apology for that is in order. But dude – seriously?
Raise your JD, or your Heiny, and join me on the path to illumination.
Carlos
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Well, Carlos, or was it Anonymous, as you’ve masterfully deduced, I will not support the ballpark and I’ve said some things sarcastically and sometimes tried to inject a little humor, which, unfortunately, have eluded you. I am sorry you feel I’ve been threatening or denigrating in any way. Why would anybody be threatened if one person (me) chooses to do other activities besides go to a ballgame. I am not threatened by those who are looking forward to it. There are lots of people who have responded to you here and I really don’t see anybody saying anything denigrating other than you. As they say, if you can’t take the heat … which is really rather lukewarm here, well, you know the rest. As for joining you on the path to ‘illumination,” I will be choosing one of the less traveled paths and get myself a good pair of sunglasses in the event we may pass one another as we’re going different directions. (FYI: humor is my intention). Anyway, as they say now at Walgreens, “be well.”
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carlos,
“financing worries you ?” you said the financing i described as “worst case.” the bonds are already bought at around 5.65. the historic hot tax was estimated to raise around 1.5 to 1.7 million. at 70 million that makes the first years interest around 4 million. foster and hunt’s rent 400k. they will have to take moneys from the general fund that have been going towards something else to pay the interest. as far as the principle ? rick schecter said it right at council. its like leasing a car. 10 years later if you want to buy it you will still owe the total after 10 years. i had forgotten about the 5 dollar fee at cohen. it was so low that i didnt remember and parking was so easy along with the walk to the stadium. the AA diablos did succeed there. i believe when they asked the council(or the voters) to upgrade the stadium it was voted down. jim paul sold them and they left. as far as your comment about about the “architecture” at city hall ? its funny that in the past years when texas tech students came down to look at buildings in el paso as part of a class their instructors told them to look at the trost, a few others, and city hall. dont know what was unusual about it, but it was a valued interest to the professors. as far as moral imperative ask yourself this. why didnt they let the people vote on whether to tear down city hall ? because they knew it wouldnt pass. Just like cook told hunt, and then hunt answered(according to cook) ” let us worry about that ! if there was ever a reason for a moral imperative, thats one for sure.
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William, your interest numbers are good.
Read https://elpasospeak.com/2013/11/08/no-principles/
for more on the situation.
Brutus
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brutus, i l know carmen said 2.4 million, but the times had many articles stating it would only get 1.5 to 1.7 million per year. my property tax consultant told me the same thing also. in the beginning i think wilson thought they could get a 3 percent rate , but she waited to try and roll other things with it. a 50 million (original estimate) stadium at 3 percent would be 1.5 mill interest and the hot would pay that while the others fees would pay down principle(400k from mstar and parking etc). the first few years and then the hot would pay everything down the road. waiting cost us millions.
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