It looks like the state is going to fund the street car project after all.
There will inevitably be real estate opportunities as a result. Building a store or restaurant along a fixed rail path is considered by many to be safer than along a bus route. The reason is simple, it is harder to move rail.
The properties on the street car route will become more desirable as stores and restaurants than they are now.
It will be interesting to see who ends up owning them.
We deserve better
Brutus
elpasospeak 
Like any project, there should be an end game.
In terms that the Mayor would understand:
The Mayor should KNOW that before you by a car, you should find out if that car has any resale value, and how much repairs are for such a car.
(For instance an Audi is a great and wonderful car, but loses half it value right off the bat and repair costs and parts are out of this world.)
So, what is the end game with this Trolley?
At some point in the future, the trolley will be removed.
1 year?, 5 years?, 10 years?, 20 years?
At some point interest will drop so far and maintenance will be so much, the trolley program will just stop.
How much will all of this cost?
How much will it cost to remove all the thousands of wires and extra telephone poles to which the wires are attached?
How much will it cost to remove all the railroad / trolley tracks in the middle of the street?
Who will pay for that?
Who will pay to repave and repair all the streets?
Will THAT be another 90 something million dollars?
Will the property tax payers have to pay for that?
(And that’s even after the income from the trolley goes to zero.)
Face it. . . At some time in the future, the trolley will not be there.
That is a FACT.
So, in considering the entire project, is this trolley thing REALLY worthwhile?
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Not sure you are right on this one. I look at cities that have installed these systems – San Francisco; Portland; Seattle; San Diego – and trolleys are a big part of their ambiance and success as cities, IMHO. Then again, most people who live in those cities can read and even turn out to vote, unlike here.
So, perhaps the trolley will be transformative here enough that it changes attitudes about the city from within? Otherwise, like Reality Checker says, it will turn out be another wealth-transfer scheme like the ball park and there will be a land rush to buy property along its route and figure out how not to pay taxes on the property, like downtown.
“Densification” does not lead to urban prosperity in the studies I’ve read, so the trolley should not be part of the glitterati’s gentrification strategy but should stand on its own financially. Which it might do and I also think it should link downtown and Juarez with Cielo Vista. Foster’s Fountains can get fu***d.
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Good points from both of you.
Although I think trolley routes from the bridges-downtown-mall may be a good idea and a bigger benefit at large from an economic standpoint, extending the route to run up and down the Oregon/Stanton street hill is really questionable. Particularly when you consider the interference with the 2 major ER’s and hospitals on the route. At best this really just seems to profit private parking garages and personal injury attorneys more than anyone else.
You are correct that no one has had a meaningful discussion about the realistic operation and maintenance costs much less the liability costs.
Fact is El Paso falls way short on the simple stuff like quality of planning, engineering, and work product as well as funding of basic road maintenance, and now the City is going to maintain track and overhead electric cables?????
Have you seen the Oregon street “improvements”? Planning/Engineering/Construction fubar.
IMO opinion until El Paso gets out from under the wave of elected political patsies and the choke holding handful of special interests they represent, comparisons to other cities does not seem realistic.
Fallacious decisions are being made in a small vacuum based on nothing more than deceptive speculation and a delusional sense of entitlement.
Here are some points that reports cited that have been brushed aside in the El Paso rhetoric as incidental if not ignored completely:
– The “inordinate number of accidents and the millions of dollars annually San Francisco pays out to settle lawsuits for broken bones, severed feet and bad bruises caused when 19th-century technology runs headlong into 21st-century city traffic and congestion.”
– Cable cars average about an accident a month and routinely rank among the most accident-prone mass transportation modes in the country per vehicle mile traveled annually, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation.
– San Francisco’s “City officials acknowledge that the open air cable cars, which ply only eight miles of track, produce a disproportionate amount of accident-related costs.”
– San Francisco’s cable cars/trolley operate at a loss due to the cost to maintain the cars and resulting accidents and liability
– A runaway cable car sped down a steep San Francisco hill, left the tracks, and careened onto the sidewalk.
– A small bolt in the track caused a cable car to slam to a sudden stop causing multiple injuries
Reference links
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/14/17742434-san-franciscos-cable-cars-rack-up-accidents-and-millions-in-legal-bills-settlements
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20130413/business/704139914/?interstitial=1
http://www.insurancejournal.com/magazines/features/2013/05/06/290455.htm
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That’s a good point about injuries.
Didnt know much about that.
And the blocking or interference of Hospital Emergency entrance and exits would be / could be/ life threatning.
And to lay RAILROAD Tracks. . . . . the streets are torn up and blocked for MONTHS.
I dont see how any business would benefit from that.
The streets are not an amusment park and to create congestion and gawkers wandering around near curbs and walking into the street to catch a Trolley would be dangerous.
These Trollies pick up and let out passengers IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET. Hello. Hello.
How would you like a quiet business along the trollie route and . . . . click, click, click, clack, clack, clack of the trollie wheels while you are trying to work.
Many people that live around railroad tracks will tell you of the noise.
Hum m m m m . . . Steel wheels and steel track and ice and snow and . . . well just TRY and get that thing to climb Stanton Street. Cars have a hard time in the ice and snow.
Will the overhead WIRES clear those tall 18 wheelers that deliver in town?
Will the largest ladder fire trucks be able to clear those wires?
Will ladder trucks have a hard time with rescues since they cant raise their ladders on a street covered with WIRES?
Will someone here please contact the Fire Department and go to City Council with their awswer?
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There is a big difference between Street Cars or Trolleys (which El Paso will have) and Cable Cars, which only San Francisco has. I doubt the accident rates are the same. New Orleans has operated its trolley without much incident for years.
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I think you may be mistaken.
San Francisco has wanted to buy El Paso’s street cars for years.
El Paso’s cars are identical models and San Francisco needed them for spare parts for repairs because parts are not made for the older cars anymore.
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Very good points. I doubt there is a public rail line in the US that operates at a break-even level, which is not totally a reason not to have one, as off-loading traffic from roads is a good thing. Except nearly everywhere as far as I can see, the percent of riders on mass transit vs all transit is in decline. Part of this is due to the increase in telecommuting and the changing mix of jobs from industrial to service, spread out in the urban area. El Paso is 45 miles end-to-end!
Downtowns are so 20th century and it is hard to make a case for downtown if you’re starting from scratch like El Paso, after losing yours.
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I have ridden these trollies and there is only room for 2 skinny eight year olds to pass between the seats and isles. (not fat adults)
The seats are similar to the Plaza Theater: if you are over 150 pounds, it will be a really. . . . tight fit.
Most of us are taller and larger than out parents.
Most are 1 foot or more taller and 100 pounds more.
There was not room for any air conditioning or vents or anything. I dont think they had heating either.
During the winter everyone was just wearing COATS.
I dont know WHERE they would install air conditioning for something this size when it was soooooooooooo cramped to start with.
I remember having to bend over the seat, to let an adult pass up the isle. THIS is soooooooooooo out of date.
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90 million for a Street car line to NO where….sound familiar 😉
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The end game is the new ballpark and downtown bars and restaurants. The route will be modified to include any destinations requested by Foster and Hunt.
Yes, maintenance will be high because it will be running on streets like Stanton, which are in bad need of repair.
When Ted Houghton defends this project by saying “you can’t pave your way to prosperity,” he overlooks the obvious fact that the trolleys will run on pavement. But hey, who cares about facts?
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Now imagine, these old cars with narrow seats full of fat people and its trying to get up Stanton Street.
And people that live around downtown SEEM to be handicaped, fat, limp, have one eye, spit every 5 seconds, etc.
So, THIS is the bulk of the riders I suppose.
Downtown people. Students from Juarez. And 2 tourists.
Maids too.
Maybe they can get out and push.
( Ive worked downtown for years and I’ve seen these people so dont give me flack ! )
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